 Replies to this thread |
gateley  (1000+ posts)     | Sat Apr-05-08 05:21 AM Response to Original message |
| 1. K&R and Bookmarking! nt |
 | |
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ConsAreLiars (1000+ posts)  | Sat Apr-05-08 05:46 AM Response to Original message |
| 2. Thank you (K&R) - This is one of those posts that rather than stirring up a lot of noise, |
 | puts out the whole picture. This phrase says what needs to be said: "A government should be judged by how it benefits or harms its citizens and how it benefits or harms the rest of humanity." |
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| Karenina (1000+ posts) | Sat Apr-05-08 01:10 PM Response to Reply #2 |
| 9. Indeed! K&R!!! |
 | |
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| Time for change (1000+ posts) | Sat Apr-05-08 04:09 PM Response to Reply #2 |
| 17. Thank you -- I have to say that Naomi Klein's book is one of the best I've ever read at putting out |
 | the whole picture and providing overall perspective. A ground breaking piece of work. |
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| ConcernedCanuk (1000+ posts) | Sat Apr-05-08 06:08 AM Response to Original message |
| 3. Excellent post TFC - I read it all |
 | . . . If the USA gets more thinkers like yourself to the forefront, There may be hope for the USA yet. Here's to hope . . . |
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| Time for change (1000+ posts) | Sat Apr-05-08 08:10 PM Response to Reply #3 |
| 25. Thank you so much -- Here's to hope |
|  |
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| Juche (264 posts) | Sat Apr-05-08 06:34 AM Response to Original message |
| 4. Good post, but missed the part about competitors to IMF & World bank |
| Various left wing leaders in south & central america are forming banks to compete with the IMF & world bank. ALBA for one which is a more socialistic alternative to other int. banks. http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/01/26/america/LA-GE... I wouldn't worry about the right wingers. They have a 'my country, right or wrong' attitude that a person should unconditionally support the nation (unless a democrat is president). Personally I support my country when it does good, and get upset when it does bad. And I would love to see my country be a meaningful force for good in the world again. We still do alot of good (alot of medical research is done here for example, and many of the world's intellectuals reside here), but we could be doing alot more good with all our intellectual and material capital. |
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| NM Independent (232 posts) | Sat Apr-05-08 06:52 AM Response to Original message |
| 5. Thank you for all the work you do... |
 | I have been going through your entries, and all the info on your journal. Absolutely mind boggling. Your head must hurt with all of this information in it. Mine hurts just trying to soak it all in. Please, run for office  |
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| Time for change (1000+ posts) | Sat Apr-05-08 05:54 PM Response to Reply #5 |
| 19. Thank you very much |
| One of the great things about writing my thoughts down is that then I don't have to keep them so much in my head. I can forget some of them, but then the details are there when I need them to refer to -- thanks to the internet and DU. That way I prevent my head from hurting. |
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| bluestateboomer (146 posts) | Sat Apr-05-08 08:43 AM Response to Original message |
| 6. A wise essay |
 | K&R!!!  |
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| Hippo_Tron (1000+ posts) | Sat Apr-05-08 08:58 AM Response to Original message |
| 7. We act like America being an empire is some big secret, it's really not |
 | Ever since World War II we've been the dominant force in the world and after the fall of the Soviet Union, the only remaining superpower. I don't say empire as though it's entirely a bad thing. Like it or not, US Hegemony does contribute to global stability. There has been no World War III largely because of America's actions. Frankly if John McCain gets elected I think our streak of preventing another world war will be put to the test, though. Of course our empire has certainly done its share of bad things. There is definitely a better way of maintaining global stability than US hegemony. I'm just not quite sure what it is. |
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| Time for change (1000+ posts) | Sat Apr-05-08 12:37 PM Response to Reply #7 |
| 8. I don't know what the evidence is that US hegemony has been a force for global stability |
| Edited on Sat Apr-05-08 12:54 PM by Time for change Many of the actions noted above have served to drive millions into poverty, facilitate wars and create chaos. One could go into a lot more detail on any of the cases cited above to make that point. I've done that in some of the individual posts that I cite. For example, consider our School of the Americas, as described in this article and described in my post: It describes numerous atrocities committed by graduates of SOA, which are consistent with the SOA curriculum. While SOA torture manuals have been withdrawn, their content has not been repudiated by SOA, and some of the worst abusers continue to be honored as guest instructors for SOA courses. School of the Americas training is oriented to support the military and political status quo in each country, which places the U.S. in opposition to any who seek free speech to discuss problems, alternative means to solve problems, or democratic means to change governments. More specifically, the enemy is identified as the poor, those who assist the poor, such as church workers, educators, and unions, and certain ideologies such as “socialism” or “liberation theology”. All of this just to make sure that Communists or “leftists” don’t get a foothold in any of these countries. With our numerous violent overthrows of democratic sovereign governments and installing of brutal dictators, and our devastating direct involvement in wars in Vietnam and Iraq, what have we done since FDR and Truman led the establishment of the UN, and Truman established the Marshall plan, to count as being a net stabilizing force in the world? Yes, some of our Presidents since WW II have striven for peace and accomplished some important objectives towards that end (Truman, Kennedy, Carter, Clinton). But overall I just don't see how we can be considered a net force for world stabilization since the Marshall Plan. |
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| TorchesAndPitchforks (1000+ posts) | Sat Apr-05-08 02:06 PM Response to Reply #8 |
| 12. To be fair we can never know how the postwar world would have turned out |
| if the US did not share superpower status with the Soviet Union in a bipolar world. Would the old Soviet Union as the world's sole superpower been more beneficent than the US? After all, they were right wing, anti-democratic, and expansionist as was clearly shown after their fall. Would western Europe have devoted more of their budgets to the military if they didn't have the US security blanket over them? Would they have been able to develop their social democracies? We can never know the answers to these questions. A global order is important because it does promote stability, at least among the major powers. Chaos breaks loose when one of the great powers teeters and falls. It is a fact of life. Strong international institutions that promote peace and share prosperity will do more good than any hegemonic super power. A strong United States that promotes intl institutions and actually lives up to its ideals on the world stage could do a hell of a lot of good for the world. If we can ever get her there. I grow more doubtful with each passing decade. |
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| Time for change (1000+ posts) | Sat Apr-05-08 03:03 PM Response to Reply #12 |
| 16. That is true |
| I don't think that the Soviet Union would have been more beneficient than the US -- especially under Stalin. And yes, Europe would have had to develop their militaries if not for the protection of the US. We do not know where that would have led to. The only part of your post I disagree with is this part: "A global order is important because it does promote stability, at least among the major powers. Chaos breaks loose when one of the great powers teeters and falls." "Global order" is a very vague term IMO. Depending upon its nature, it may promote stability, or it may not. It may produce more chaos than order. In any event, "stability" should not be the main goal. With billions of the world's population in poverty and hungry, even though the world has enough resources to provide food for all of us, we should do much more than aim just for stability. I agree completely with your last paragraph. We have a long way to go to get to that point, especially after our long eight year detour. |
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| defendandprotect (1000+ posts) | Sun Apr-06-08 01:26 AM Response to Reply #12 |
| 34. Agree and disagree . . . |
 | Edited on Sun Apr-06-08 01:30 AM by defendandprotect Many suggest that the Cold War was contrived --- fake -- and intended to keep the MIIC going. America, of course, had atomic weapons and showed that it would use them -- without mercy --!! Most nations post-WWII wanted peace -- and a chance to recover. It was America which was continuing to push to move the soldiers into Vietnam IMMEDIATELY after Japan. The British and the French were now unable to keep their empires going --- and revolution was in the air -- colonies wanted to separate from their masters post WWII. In India, of course, they used the landmine of religion to split the country in two -- as the English were forced out. Unfortunately, the days when we could believe in a peace-loving America are pretty much over. In fact, Imperialism is quite on the menu these days --- openly on the menu. |
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| ekwhite (740 posts) | Sat Apr-05-08 07:19 PM Response to Reply #7 |
| 22. I strongly disagree with your assertion |
 | The American empire is bad for the American republic, and for democracy worldwide. Just as the British empire was bad, the Austro-Hungarian empire was bad, etc., etc. History has shown at least since the Roman republic that imperialism leads to an erosion of democracy in the home country. The costs of maintaining the American empire directly contribute to the national debt and the fall of the dollar. American imperial ambition has devastated democratic movements in the Middle East and contributed to the rise of terrorist movements throughout the region. It is American imperialism that has led to the debacle in Iraq, with the death of a million Iraqis and 4000 American soldiers, along with the waste of hundreds of billions of dollars of American treasure. America has a choice - to walk away from the American empire, as the British did after WWII, or to continue until the empire bankrupts our country, financially and morally. |
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| Solon (1000+ posts) | Sat Apr-05-08 11:41 PM Response to Reply #7 |
| 31. Since when was it U.S. policy to "promote stability"? |
 | That was never the goal, the United States, since WWII, at least after Truman, had a stated goal of increasing the influence of American corporations worldwide. Indeed, in order to accomplish this goal, they had to do two things, suppress democratic movements worldwide, and sell it to the American people as "fighting communism". Also, I see little evidence that the United States actually prevented WWIII from occurring. |
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| leftchick (1000+ posts) | Sat Apr-05-08 01:39 PM Response to Original message |
| 10. Excellent! And might I add.... |
 | John Pilger's film is a must see to help understand US imperialism in South and Central America.... http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article18236.h... Thank you so much TFC! This is an extraordinary post!  |
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| Time for change (1000+ posts) | Sat Apr-05-08 09:43 PM Response to Reply #10 |
| 27. Thank you -- That looks like a very interesting film. I'll have to watch it. |
| |
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| Echo In Light (1000+ posts) | Sat Apr-05-08 01:44 PM Response to Original message |
| 11. Walter Lippmann also coined the term "manufacture of consent" which Chomsky wrote about |
| ...so many yrs later as it's still quite prominent. |
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| Time for change (1000+ posts) | Sat Apr-05-08 10:33 PM Response to Reply #11 |
| 29. What did they mean by that? |
| |
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| Echo In Light (1000+ posts) | Sat Apr-05-08 11:21 PM Response to Reply #29 |
| 30. Some info: |
| It's a cultural form/propaganda stratagem for marginalizing the public voice and role in the affairs and concerns of managing society, specifically to the aid of the elites who largely own and run the society, and in so doing reducing democratic interference with the profits over people ideal. In Chomsky's terms, it's an Orwellian euphemism for how thought control works in democratic society. http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Herman%20/Manufacturi... "All this falls under Walter Lippmann's notion of "the manufacture of consent." Democracy permits the voice of the people to be heard, and it is the task of the intellectual to ensure that this voice endorses what leaders perceive to be the right course. Propaganda is to democracy what violence is to totalitarianism. The techniques have been honed to a high art in the U.S. and elsewhere, far beyond anything that Orwell dreamed of. The device of feigned dissent (as practiced by the Vietnam- era "doves," who criticized the war on the grounds of effectiveness and not principle) is one of the more subtle means, though simple lying and suppressing fact and other crude techniques are also highly effective. For those who stubbornly seek freedom around the world, there can be no more urgent task than to come to understand the mechanisms and practices of indoctrination. These are easy to perceive in the totalitarian societies, much less so in the propaganda system to which we are subjected and in which all too often we serve as unwilling or unwitting instruments." ~ Noam Chomsky http://www.zpub.com/un/chomsky.html http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-56318823952268... |
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| annabanana (1000+ posts) | Sat Apr-05-08 02:13 PM Response to Original message |
| 13. This message needs to be "bumperstickered" for the lazy. |
 | How can we talk about this in simple, unarguable language? That is the only way we can get it to enter the realm of "common knowledge". |
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| Orwellian_Ghost (1000+ posts) | Sat Apr-05-08 02:24 PM Response to Original message |
| 14. K&R |  |
 |  |
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| ooglymoogly (1000+ posts) | Sat Apr-05-08 02:31 PM Response to Original message |
| 15. KR for truth |
| |
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| lildreamer316 (1000+ posts) | Sat Apr-05-08 04:47 PM Response to Original message |
| 18. I think this is the best post I've ever read on DU. Really. |
 | Thank you. Many times reading this, my mind started whirring, going off in different directions, making connections to other areas of American life that have been affected by these policies; realizing whys and wherefores. This actually helps me to understand part of why I am a stripper, and why that feels so freeing. It is because my earning potential is based NOT upon some corporate (and therefore Chicago-School influenced!) control factor,but upon something much more basic: Human Nature. THIS is why it is possible for a good number of intelligent women and men in my profession to find wealth/at least make a living. There are always people trying to control it, but so far that has been less than successful, although in certain areas it has been. It also helped me to understand why my parents were not able to comprehend my decision to not finish college. During most of their adult life, incomes were upwardly mobile; education was somewhat affordable and extremely necessary for any kind of good job, and if one were to 'follow the rules'; one would succeed in life. I don't feel this is true at all in today's economic environment. My parents have passed, but I fear they would not recognize the America they grew up in. Very thought provoking, very enlightening, very encouraging. I personally tend to put a spiritual spin on this (not Christian, but new-agey, LOL) and look at it through those glasses, but any way you see it, it makes a lot of sense. Follow the money. I so hope that we can recover from our shock therapy soon. We, and our children, need it desperately. THIS IS ALSO why I get VERY ANGRY at people, even liberals, who so easily blame the US people for not 'waking up'. Look, we are trying. Why are they always blaming? We need to work together. The example given here of Latin America's people shows that change can happen, awakenings do occur. Sure, we expect Americans to be quicker on the uptake. I certainly hope so also. But you can't blame them for not wanting to let go of the dream. They sold us such a nice one. It's hard to realize we can make a reality better than the dream, when so often the reverse has seemed to be the case. Thank you so much, again. Absolutely wonderful post, great clear thought. I'm going to keep this to refer to. This is what a true citizen of the country, and of the WORLD, looks like. |
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| Time for change (1000+ posts) | Sun Apr-06-08 12:59 AM Response to Reply #18 |
| 33. Thank you very much |
| If you're interested in looking at this from a spriitual angle, I would strongly recommend Scott Peck's "People of the Lie". It's one of the most interesting books I've ever read. He looks at the problem of evil from both a scientific and a spiritual angle simultaneously -- kind of melds them together. |
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| catzies (1000+ posts) | Sat Apr-05-08 06:25 PM Response to Original message |
| 20. OUTSTANDING. This is why I came to DU, and why I stay here. |
 | These are the posts I come here for: knowledge and enlightement. Bookmarking, archiving K&Ring, etc. |
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| Time for change (1000+ posts) | Sun Apr-06-08 03:54 AM Response to Reply #20 |
| 41. Thank you -- That's very nice to hear. |
| I appreciate it. |
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| ekwhite (740 posts) | Sat Apr-05-08 07:06 PM Response to Original message |
| 21. One of the best posts I have read here in a long time |
| This is a great summary of what is wrong with American foreign policy, and with the neoliberal policies that were installed after 9/11. It is no accident that we have a concentration of wealth and an erosion of democracy in our country at the same time. |
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| Time for change (1000+ posts) | Sun Apr-06-08 04:18 AM Response to Reply #21 |
| 42. Thank you very much -- No, it's no accident at all |
| The good majority of people in this country (or any other country) do not want a tremendous concentration of wealth, at the expense of 90% or more of the rest of the people. A thriving democracy would not tolerate that. |
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| H2O Man (1000+ posts) | Sat Apr-05-08 07:23 PM Response to Original message |
| 23. Once again, | |
 | you deliver with the quality of information that makes DU such a valuable place. Thank you. Your contributions here are really appreciated, and I enjoy being able to share these with other people -- particularly students. Nominated. |
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| Time for change (1000+ posts) | Sun Apr-06-08 03:13 AM Response to Reply #23 |
| 40. Thank you -- That's really great to hear that you sometimes share these with your students. |
| Edited on Sun Apr-06-08 03:53 AM by Time for change |
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| JackRiddler (1000+ posts) | Sat Apr-05-08 07:33 PM Response to Original message |
| 24. Excellent piece - especially the perspective on Latin America... |
 | Incredible numbers wrt the IMF. I hadn't realized - it happened ovrernight, and Venezuela led the way. Latin America is leaving the orbit and the most important single event of the last decade* will be remembered as the failed coup of April 11, 2002, when the US proved for the first time unable to impose its will by the last resort of force. (*Along with the 9/11 deception to launch the Global War, which is turning into the empire's last stand.) The stage we've reached reminds me of the song by Laurie Anderson, O Superman: 'Cause when love is gone, there's always justice. And when justive is gone, there's always force. And when force is gone, there's always Mom. Hi Mom! So hold me, Mom, in your long arms. So hold me, Mom, in your long arms. In your automatic arms. Your electronic arms. In your arms. So hold me, Mom, in your long arms. Your petrochemical arms. Your military arms. In your electronic arms. |
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| Time for change (1000+ posts) | Sun Apr-06-08 05:00 AM Response to Reply #24 |
| 44. Thank you -- I was and am very glad that that coup failed |
| |
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| quantessd (1000+ posts) | Sat Apr-05-08 08:10 PM Response to Original message |
| 26. Recommended! |
 | The USA is an empire, all right. |
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| junofeb (944 posts) | Sat Apr-05-08 10:32 PM Response to Original message |
| 28. K&R! |
 | Solidarity! It sounds trite, but its best word I can think of to decribe what we need now. |
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| snot (1000+ posts) | Sun Apr-06-08 12:18 AM Response to Original message |
| 32. My concern: will U.S. CITIZENS realize in time that they're doing the same to US. |
 | |
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| Karenina (1000+ posts) | Sun Apr-06-08 01:30 PM Response to Reply #32 |
| 48. Good question! |
| Sunday kick.  |
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| defendandprotect (1000+ posts) | Sun Apr-06-08 01:42 AM Response to Original message |
| 35. bookmarked and thank you! |
| Edited on Sun Apr-06-08 01:44 AM by defendandprotect I'm still working thru Naomi Klein's book --- library copy in and out --- because I find that if I own the book I often don't read it! And, I'm still only half way thru Naomi Wolf's "Death of America." I do, however, feel that I'm aware of much of the material, but there are surprises.... Of course, I saw Milton Freedman on TV and having listened to him a bit thought him a complete ass. And from there on totally ignored him and wondered how anyone could be watching him. HOWEVER, I had no idea of the role he played in the Allende/Pinochet disaster --- or the role that those who practiced his form of economic medicine played in that disaster --- and throughout Latin America!!! Now, of course, we can look at PBS today and quite understand that it's been under corporate control for quite some decades. But, as I reflect upon PBS' role in presenting Milton Freedman -- and who was the other idiot -- a distortion of another historical character I can't think of at the moment -- somebody's "Journal" -- I have to see this now as something extremely sinister. Oh -- there's so much to talk about here --- but thank you again. PS: Just want to mention there's a comment in there about Enron/Lay having died in prison. Actually, he died under threat of being imprisoned. Some wonder if he actually died and whether he's off somewhere enjoying himself? |
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| Time for change (1000+ posts) | Sun Apr-06-08 02:20 AM Response to Reply #35 |
| 36. Yes, Naomi Klein's book is full of shocking information. And she really knows how to connect the |
| dots as much as anyone. Were you trying to think of Bill Moyers? I actually think that he's quite good. He has had a lot of very astute things to say about freedom of the press and the need to counteract media consolidation. He's been very outspoken about that, and I'm pretty sure he lost his job at PBS because of it. Maybe you heard him talk about some things that I missed. |
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| defendandprotect (1000+ posts) | Sun Apr-06-08 05:47 AM Response to Reply #36 |
| 46. I was very impressed with what I've seen of NK on video ... |
| Edited on Sun Apr-06-08 05:48 AM by defendandprotect and as I said, I'm only 1/4 of the way thru the book, but she's brilliant. No -- the other person on PBS I was thinking of --- and it was a distortion of a historical person --- was it "Tony Brown's Journal" --- ??? There was an African-American using the good will for the original character and quite distorting the his history for his own purpose. Again -- here we have PBS involved in disinforming the public --- at the time I thought of Freedman's appearances and the Tony Brown thing as just odd. It was all a great deal more than that, IMO, now. Bill Moyers, it is true, has done a great deal. But I've always felt uneasy about him. It's just a personal thing. One of my problems with what he does on PBS is it's done in a way which would never get anyone up off their couch to do anything about the issue. Also, he was closely connected to LBJ --- served in his White House. Pierre Salinger tells us that both he and MOYERS knew LBJ to be "clinically psychotic" -- and as near as I can tell neither one of them did anything about it in letting the public know. Evidently, the fact that a number of LBJ's aides were in agreement on this may, however, been part of his impetus for his not running again. And, of course, LBJ is another subject --- another really corrupt individual who had a lasting and negative effect on our government and America --- if not much of the world. Hard to think that Moyers who was also from Texas didn't know the truth about LBJ . . . ??? |
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| diane in sf (1000+ posts) | Sun Apr-06-08 02:21 AM Response to Original message |
| 37. Thank you, hope more people wake up to the fact we're being shocked and awed |
| right here and now in the good old USA. |
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| Lydia Leftcoast (1000+ posts) | Sun Apr-06-08 02:26 AM Response to Original message |
| 38. People of my generation tend to associate the word "imperialist" with |
 | official statements from Communist governments, so they shut down. But if you look at the facts, you see that indeed, the U.S. is guilty of economic imperialism and economically driven imperialism. In this case, the Communists were right. |
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| bluesmail (456 posts) | Sun Apr-06-08 02:50 AM Response to Original message |
| 39. bookmarked and K&R |
| |
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| Kaleko (209 posts) | Sun Apr-06-08 04:47 AM Response to Original message |
| 43. Word! |
 | Time for change: "I cannot take pride in a system that creates billionaires at the cost of throwing millions of people into poverty, misery and fear." No one can. That's where denial comes in. We live in the Divided States of Denial. You've written a consciousness-raising article here. I don't know how to thank you enough. |
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| Time for change (1000+ posts) | Sun Apr-06-08 05:07 AM Response to Reply #43 |
| 45. Thank you |
| Yes, I believe that denial is a major problem with our country. |
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| dougolat (46 posts) | Sun Apr-06-08 06:10 AM Response to Original message |
| 47. Rev. Wright didn't say he hated America, |
| that's just the way the media spun it. His sermon was about living up to our professed ideals. When Bill Clinton came to town this weekend I held up a sign for his cavalcade saying "Iran-Contra thugs You let them go Now look what they've done." hoping to tweak his conscience. Had a talk with someone hung up on the "we can't accept defeat in Iraq" line; stopped him with "Is it defeat when the police finally give up on the drug-raid at the wrong address?" I sure hope Hugo Chavez and Evo Morales can stick to their ideals, and not get caught up in repressive authoritarianism like Castro did. Thanks TFC, another post to share widely. |
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| Time for change (1000+ posts) | Sun Apr-06-08 02:14 PM Response to Reply #47 |
| 49. Self delete -- duplicate. |
| Edited on Sun Apr-06-08 02:15 PM by Time for change |
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| Time for change (1000+ posts) | Sun Apr-06-08 02:14 PM Response to Reply #47 |
| 50. Great retort to "We can't accept defeat in Iraq" |
| I'll have to remember that one. |
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| tex-wyo-dem (1000+ posts) | Sun Apr-06-08 03:10 PM Response to Original message |
| 51. Too late to rec, but will certainly kick & bookmark... |
 | Excellent and informative! Keep up the great work! It's posts like this that keeps me coming back to DU. |
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| nathan hale (1000+ posts) | Sun Apr-06-08 04:02 PM Response to Original message |
| 52. Excellent Document! |
 | Didn't bookmark --- SAVED to be converted to pdf for my reading and archiving pleasure. Thank you for one of the most meaningful posts in a long time. Now, THIS is what I'm talking about on DU. |
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| Ghost Dog (1000+ posts) | Sun Apr-06-08 04:48 PM Response to Original message |
| 53. Copied |
 | here, if you don't mind. |
|
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